I'm going with a BRS, so my 26' Strong back pack is for sale, never
used, repacked annually, good condition, repacked 3/10/10, $500
JJ Sinclair

On 2/9/2011 6:20 AM, JJ Sinclair wrote:
> I'm going with a BRS, so my 26' Strong back pack is for sale, never
> used, repacked annually, good condition, repacked 3/10/10, $500
> JJ Sinclair

Why not wear it, and provide another option that's known to work? It's
not like you are going to test your BRS system for proper operation.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

Why not wear it, and provide another option that's known to work?
It's
> not like you are going to test your BRS system for proper operation.

I thought about that, but I believe the BRS system will deploy with
near 100% assurance. At 76, I'm only 50% sure I could get out of a
stable aircraft and zero% sure I could make it out of a spinning
tumbling fur-ball. If for some reason the BRS deployed but didn't
inflate, I would/could be trying to go over the side and into the un-
inflated risers and canopy of the BRS..............grrrrr
JJ

On Feb 9, 9:32*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> *Why not wear it, and provide another option that's known to work?
> It's
>
> > not like you are going to test your BRS system for proper operation.
>
> I thought about that, but I believe the BRS system will deploy with
> near 100% assurance. At 76, I'm only 50% sure I could get out of a
> stable aircraft and zero% sure I could make it out of a spinning
> tumbling fur-ball. If for some reason the BRS deployed but didn't
> inflate, I would/could be trying to go over the side and into the un-
> inflated risers and canopy of the BRS..............grrrrr
> JJ

Hope you never have to test either - and we're talking about tiny
probabilities anyway - but I would feel really bad hanging under a
half-deployed BRS with an extra $500 in my pocket but no option to
jump.

Life's full of choices - $500 get's you 1/3 of the way to a PowerFlarm
so it's all about tradeoffs.

9B

On 2/9/2011 9:32 AM, JJ Sinclair wrote:
> Why not wear it, and provide another option that's known to work?
> It's
>> not like you are going to test your BRS system for proper operation.
>
> I thought about that, but I believe the BRS system will deploy with
> near 100% assurance. At 76, I'm only 50% sure I could get out of a
> stable aircraft and zero% sure I could make it out of a spinning
> tumbling fur-ball. If for some reason the BRS deployed but didn't
> inflate, I would/could be trying to go over the side and into the un-
> inflated risers and canopy of the BRS..............grrrrr

Or maybe the BRS deploys completely, but the glider attitude is making
everything gyrate so badly that it's going to be a really, really bad
"touchdown".

My thought was wearing it didn't add to your risk, and it might be a
good hedge against an untested installation that turns out to have "issues".

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Feb 9, 12:49*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> Or maybe the BRS deploys completely, but the glider attitude is making
> everything gyrate so badly that it's going to be a really, really bad
> "touchdown".

Or maybe the deployed BRS catches another glider that was nearby,
enveloping the canopy and preventing that pilot from getting out.
You'd want to land safely under your own canopy so you could deal with
the lawyers representing the widow of the other pilot.

Ok, maybe a bit extreme, but has anyone advocating BRS in gliders
actually considered the risk of deploying one in a large gaggle. A
free falling pilot has, by default, cleared the air the personal chute
will deploy into. Not so with a BRS.

Andy

On Feb 9, 12:05*pm, Andy > wrote:
> Or maybe the deployed BRS catches another glider that was nearby,
> enveloping the canopy and preventing that pilot from getting out.
> You'd want to land safely under your own canopy so you could deal with
> the lawyers representing the widow of the other pilot.

I still remember the photos of the burning Cirrus slowly descending
under a parachute...

JJ, how old is the parachute?

Bart

On Feb 9, 11:32*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> *Why not wear it, and provide another option that's known to work?
> It's
>
> > not like you are going to test your BRS system for proper operation.
>
> I thought about that, but I believe the BRS system will deploy with
> near 100% assurance. At 76, I'm only 50% sure I could get out of a
> stable aircraft and zero% sure I could make it out of a spinning
> tumbling fur-ball. If for some reason the BRS deployed but didn't
> inflate, I would/could be trying to go over the side and into the un-
> inflated risers and canopy of the BRS..............grrrrr
> JJ

I'd keep a chute around for two place flying. I think my days of
flying trainers for rides, bfrs, and instruction without a parachute
are over.
John Cochrane.

On Feb 9, 9:20*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> I'm going with a BRS, so my 26' Strong back pack is for sale, never
> used, repacked annually, good condition, repacked 3/10/10, $500
> JJ Sinclair

could you tell me the mfg year and model please.

Rick

On 2-9-2011 17:32, JJ Sinclair wrote:
> Why not wear it, and provide another option that's known to work?
> It's
>> not like you are going to test your BRS system for proper operation.
>
> I thought about that, but I believe the BRS system will deploy with
> near 100% assurance. At 76, I'm only 50% sure I could get out of a
> stable aircraft and zero% sure I could make it out of a spinning
> tumbling fur-ball. If for some reason the BRS deployed but didn't
> inflate, I would/could be trying to go over the side and into the un-
> inflated risers and canopy of the BRS..............grrrrr
> JJ
If the BRS doesn't work, it would be nice to have a plan B...but the
redundancy would mean extra weight, ie less useful load.

The chute is a Strong 303 backpack manufactured in 10/94, so its 16
years old. Some re-packers have been know to impose a 20-year life
limit which is not in the FAR's........a carry-over from the military,
and we all know who pays for their new chutes ($1985 if you please) as
far as the Feds are concerned, a chute is good to go as long as it
passes inspection, kinda like our sailplanes. Wouln't it be a bitch if
we had to ****can our sailplanes at 20 years?
As for two parachutes, I have picked the best option IMHO and I will
go with that. Kinda like wearing a belt and suspenders, isn't it?
Cheers,
JJ
PS, I'm looking forward to a very comfortable seat in the future.

On 2/9/2011 12:05 PM, Andy wrote:
> On Feb 9, 12:49 pm, Eric > wrote:
>> Or maybe the BRS deploys completely, but the glider attitude is making
>> everything gyrate so badly that it's going to be a really, really bad
>> "touchdown".
>
> Or maybe the deployed BRS catches another glider that was nearby,
> enveloping the canopy and preventing that pilot from getting out.
> You'd want to land safely under your own canopy so you could deal with
> the lawyers representing the widow of the other pilot.
>
> Ok, maybe a bit extreme, but has anyone advocating BRS in gliders
> actually considered the risk of deploying one in a large gaggle. A
> free falling pilot has, by default, cleared the air the personal chute
> will deploy into. Not so with a BRS.

OK, there your are, upside down, half a wing missing, on your way down
through a gaggle of 20 gliders. Is it better to pop the BRS right away
(maybe get someone with your chute), or wait till you are below the
gaggle (maybe hit someone(s) at high speed on your way down)?

Even sitting here, safe and sound, I can't imagine what the best plan
would be, so it may be premature to suggest deploying a BRS in the
middle of a gaggle is riskier to the rest of the gaggle than an
out-of-control, tumbling glider.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

On Feb 9, 5:17*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 2/9/2011 12:05 PM, Andy wrote:
>
> > On Feb 9, 12:49 pm, Eric > *wrote:
> >> Or maybe the BRS deploys completely, but the glider attitude is making
> >> everything gyrate so badly that it's going to be a really, really bad
> >> "touchdown".
>
> > Or maybe the deployed BRS catches another glider that was nearby,
> > enveloping the canopy and preventing that pilot from getting out.
> > You'd want to land safely under your own canopy so you could deal with
> > the lawyers representing the widow of the other pilot.
>
> > Ok, maybe a bit extreme, but has anyone advocating BRS in gliders
> > actually considered the risk of deploying one in a large gaggle. A
> > free falling pilot has, by default, cleared the air the personal chute
> > will deploy into. *Not so with a BRS.
>
> OK, there your are, upside down, half a wing missing, on your way down
> through a gaggle of 20 gliders. Is it better to pop the BRS right away
> (maybe get someone with your chute), or wait till you are below the
> gaggle (maybe hit someone(s) at high speed on your way down)?
>
> Even sitting here, safe and sound, I can't imagine what the best plan
> would be, so it may be premature to suggest deploying a BRS in the
> middle of a gaggle is riskier to the rest of the gaggle than an
> out-of-control, tumbling glider.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> email me)

I think it takes little thought. Bad things start happening... you
pull the lever. I would not sit around hoping they don't get worse and
I don't know the maximum operating speed of JJ's BRS systems but our
slippery little toys likely can reach that fast and if they do its too
late. Unfortunately exceeding the speed limits of BRS systems has cost
several GA pilots their lives.

Personally I would not trade a backpack parachute for a BRS system. In
addition to ... yes (if fitting a BRS to my glider was an option at
all). JJ is in the lucky position of having a glider designed to take
a BRS system. Still I'd really like to know the BRS system being
fitted has been test fired in that exact glider type and demonstrated
to work well and I'd really want to understand the use/survival
envelope (max airspeed, min altitude, descent fuselage angle, descent
rate etc.).

Darryl

>>I still remember the photos of the burning Cirrus slowly descending
>>under a parachute...

...with the pilot and passenger jumping (without chute) to get away from
the flames.....

On Feb 9, 6:17*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 2/9/2011 12:05 PM, Andy wrote:
>
> > On Feb 9, 12:49 pm, Eric > *wrote:
> >> Or maybe the BRS deploys completely, but the glider attitude is making
> >> everything gyrate so badly that it's going to be a really, really bad
> >> "touchdown".
>
> > Or maybe the deployed BRS catches another glider that was nearby,
> > enveloping the canopy and preventing that pilot from getting out.
> > You'd want to land safely under your own canopy so you could deal with
> > the lawyers representing the widow of the other pilot.
>
> > Ok, maybe a bit extreme, but has anyone advocating BRS in gliders
> > actually considered the risk of deploying one in a large gaggle. A
> > free falling pilot has, by default, cleared the air the personal chute
> > will deploy into. *Not so with a BRS.
>
> OK, there your are, upside down, half a wing missing, on your way down
> through a gaggle of 20 gliders. Is it better to pop the BRS right away
> (maybe get someone with your chute), or wait till you are below the
> gaggle (maybe hit someone(s) at high speed on your way down)?
>
> Even sitting here, safe and sound, I can't imagine what the best plan
> would be, so it may be premature to suggest deploying a BRS in the
> middle of a gaggle is riskier to the rest of the gaggle than an
> out-of-control, tumbling glider.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> email me)

Agree with Darryl that anyone expecting a BRS to save them will pull
the handle as soon as possible. The difference with an out of control
glider falling through a gaggle is that it may be possible to avoid
it. Also, if there is a collision with that out of control falling
glider the hit pilot stands a reasonable chance of bailing out if not
incapacitated by a direct hit to the cockpit. If a glider ahead and
below deploys a BRS you won't stand a chance of avoiding it and, if
the canopy envelopes the cockpit, I doubt it would be possible to get
out.

Andy

>
> OK, there your are, upside down, half a wing missing, on your way down
> through a gaggle of 20 gliders. Is it better to pop the BRS right away
> (maybe get someone with your chute), or wait till you are below the
> gaggle (maybe hit someone(s) at high speed on your way down)?
>

Oh my, where to start? First off, this ain't my first rodeo, I have
been through this drill twice while doing my civic duty in the USAF
and believe my, delaying pulling the handle was the last thing I
considered. The problem that really worries me is a midair in the
pattern. I almost had a head-on midair just after calling down-wind
with a fellow who didn't feel it was necessary to tell me he was
entering the pattern also, but in the opposite direction! If we had
collided, there is no way either of us would have made it, period, end
of discussion! Deploying a BRS in this situation, could save a
life.............mine!
They have conducted 35 airborne tests to establish maximum weight and
speed parameters. The system I selected is 200 pounds under the max wt
with a max deployment speed of 138mph. The nose will pitch up on
deployment, so the sooner the better in this regard..........don't
want the canopy to fail or to loop up into the deployed chute.
Conclusion, don't delay pulling the little red handle! BRS tests have
shown the system could work as low as 260 feet depending mainly on
aircraft attitude on deployment (rocket fires up). Descent rate of
15-28f/s depending on wt and density altitude, lets use 22f/s, thats
like jumping off a 7 foot ledge or being involved in a fender-bender
at 15mph. Descent attitude on the Genesis is 40 degrees nose low due
to the hatch being aft a bit. I would expect the nose wheel to absorb
half the impact with the main gear taking the rest with some
structrual damage, but I know a good A&P who works cheep.
Where in any of the above do I; tidy up the cockpit and step smartly
over the side wearing my back-pack?
:>) JJ
PS the Strong is sold.

On Feb 10, 7:04*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> > OK, there your are, upside down, half a wing missing, on your way down
> > through a gaggle of 20 gliders. Is it better to pop the BRS right away
> > (maybe get someone with your chute), or wait till you are below the
> > gaggle (maybe hit someone(s) at high speed on your way down)?
>
> Oh my, where to start? First off, this ain't my first rodeo, I have
> been through this drill twice while doing my civic duty in the USAF
> and believe my, delaying pulling the handle was the last thing I
> considered. The problem that really worries me is a midair in the
> pattern. I almost had a head-on midair just after calling down-wind
> with a fellow who didn't feel it was necessary to tell me he was
> entering the pattern also, but in the opposite direction! If we had
> collided, there is no way either of us would have made it, period, end
> of discussion! Deploying a BRS in this situation, could save a
> life.............mine!
> They have conducted 35 airborne tests to establish maximum weight and
> speed parameters. The system I selected is 200 pounds under the max wt
> with a max deployment speed of 138mph. The nose will pitch up on
> deployment, so the sooner the better in this regard..........don't
> want the canopy to fail or to loop up into the deployed chute.
> Conclusion, don't delay pulling the little red handle! BRS tests have
> shown the system could work as low as 260 feet depending mainly on
> aircraft attitude on deployment (rocket fires up). Descent rate of
> 15-28f/s depending on wt and density altitude, lets use 22f/s, thats
> like jumping off a 7 foot ledge or being involved in a fender-bender
> at 15mph. Descent attitude on the Genesis is 40 degrees nose low due
> to the hatch being aft a bit. I would expect the nose wheel to absorb
> half the impact with the main gear taking the rest with some
> structrual damage, but I know a good A&P who works cheep.
> Where in any of the above do I; tidy up the cockpit and step smartly
> over the side wearing my back-pack?
> :>) JJ
> PS the Strong is sold.


Additional advantages: other pilots will be less likely to leech - or
thermal in the blind spot above and behind you.

9B

Thank you JJ.

I was wondering how long it was going to take for the "Black Ace" to let people know that he understands what it is like to leave an aircraft in an emergency.

Wayne
(only one more take off then landings.)
http://tinyurl.com/N990-6F

"JJ Sinclair" > wrote in message ...
>
> Oh my, where to start? First off, this ain't my first rodeo, I have
> been through this drill twice while doing my civic duty in the USAF
> and believe my, delaying pulling the handle was the last thing I
> considered. The problem that really worries me is a midair in the
> pattern. I almost had a head-on midair just after calling down-wind
> with a fellow who didn't feel it was necessary to tell me he was
> entering the pattern also, but in the opposite direction! If we had
> collided, there is no way either of us would have made it, period, end
> of discussion! Deploying a BRS in this situation, could save a
> life.............mine!
> They have conducted 35 airborne tests to establish maximum weight and
> speed parameters. The system I selected is 200 pounds under the max wt
> with a max deployment speed of 138mph. The nose will pitch up on
> deployment, so the sooner the better in this regard..........don't
> want the canopy to fail or to loop up into the deployed chute.
> Conclusion, don't delay pulling the little red handle! BRS tests have
> shown the system could work as low as 260 feet depending mainly on
> aircraft attitude on deployment (rocket fires up). Descent rate of
> 15-28f/s depending on wt and density altitude, lets use 22f/s, thats
> like jumping off a 7 foot ledge or being involved in a fender-bender
> at 15mph. Descent attitude on the Genesis is 40 degrees nose low due
> to the hatch being aft a bit. I would expect the nose wheel to absorb
> half the impact with the main gear taking the rest with some
> structrual damage, but I know a good A&P who works cheep.
> Where in any of the above do I; tidy up the cockpit and step smartly
> over the side wearing my back-pack?
> :>) JJ
> PS the Strong is sold.